Hello everyone,
Please read my instructions for blogging in the course presentation.
In Module 1 you are writing a Discipline Policy. I like to use this scenario as an example to discuss discipline in the classroom.
Have you ever said to your children, "Just wait until your dad gets home, he will deal with you."?
or
Have you ever heard that from your parents?
or
Have you ever said to a student, "Go to the principal's office, he/she will deal with you."?
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Has that ever been said to your children or to you or to a friend?
Lets discuss this. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Please explain. Splichal
I do not think this is the right way to handle it. I think that you as the parent or teacher should be able to handle the situation and give out the proper punishment. I do not think it is fair to the other parent or authority figure to have to punish the child for when they did not witness the incident. Also, depending on the age of the child and the time before "dad" gets home the child may not remember what he/she has done to get in trouble. I think it is important that a child be punished for the incident when it happens, not hours later.
ReplyDeleteAlisha Strouse
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DeleteI agree that it is difficult for someone else to punish a child if they did not witness the incident. The child's explanation (or teacher's explanation) could be slanted based on bias or personal experiences.
DeleteI agree with you. If something happens hours before Dad gets home, the child probably won't remember what has happened, or at least have trouble connecting the disobedience with the consequence. Handling the discipline immediately helps the child make the connection.
DeleteI often rely on my husband for discipline. He says the same thing you do, "I don't want to punish them when I did not see the incident." You are both right, it is not fair. In such cases he looks like the bad guy and I get off free and clear. More than likely my children will repeat the incident, as immediate action was not taken. I'm learning to handle things on my own, but don't enjoy being the bad guy!
DeleteI do not have kids, so I did not even think about the importance of the person witnessing the behavior to be the one to discipline. It makes a lot of sense though. The person who saw what happened can judge what consequence is needed.
DeleteYou are right I don't think it's fare to either the dad or the office to be put in a place where they are the person doing all the punishing. I feel like when a child doesn't know there limits with an adult they may keep trying to see how far they can push before they get in trouble.
DeleteI agree with Alisha. I think the person witnessing the behavior should deal with the situation at that moment. I have a 10 year old in a swim team. There are two brothers who are constantly misbehaving. Their mom has never pulled them out of the water as a punishment or has ever reprimanded them during class. She will constantly tell them something such as, "Just wait until we get home and I tell your dad what you guys are doing. He will be very mad you are wasting my time and his money." I can almost guarantee that by the time they arrive at their house, they have all forgotten about the situation and that is why they keep behaving the way they do.
ReplyDeleteIn a school setting, I also don't think it is appropriate for the teacher to send the student to the principal's office and let him/her deal with the situation by himself. I think it is best for all parties to sit together to discuss the behavior and hopefully find a solution.
And maybe mom never even tells dad, which is why they may be constant problems. No one is taking care of the situation. In this case I would think that if mom won't do anything then the swim coach should discipline them and speak to mom that this will not be tolerated as it disrupts the others that are doing what is expected of them.
DeleteInteresting scenario you painted for us, Martha. Sounds like a out-of-control household, which seems to confirm that it is much better to take care of a behavior problem immediately! The fact that they are waiting seems to indicate that either (as Sandra suggested) Mom never tells Dad, Dad doesn't really do anything, or the kids don't associate the crime with the punishment. It should be taken care of immediately.
DeleteI agree, the person witnessing the behavior should be the person having to deal with it. What would stop the child for going too far if the responsible adult present didn't try and stop them.
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ReplyDeleteI believe waiting for someone else to discipline a child confuses children. Discipline should be instant (as should rewards) so that students/children understand exactly what they are being disciplined for. If the child is sent to another room or waits for a different time they may translate that action to the punishment. By this I mean that if a child waits for their father to get home, they may think they did something wrong at the dinner table because that is the time they get scolded. I think that sending a student out of the classroom does not keep the discipline equal. If discipline is always taken care of by the classroom teacher all students will have the same consequences and other students will understand the consequences because they can see them and not just learn that they can leave the classroom if they misbehave.
ReplyDeleteI would have to agree with what you said about leaving the classroom to be punished. Depending on the age of the children they may do something just to get sent out of the class. They do not know what happens when they are sent to the principle. If the child gets punished in the class then the other children can see and understand that that kind of behavior is not acceptable. Therefore they may be less likely to exercise that behavior because they know they will get in trouble.
DeleteI completely agree with you. Children tend to easily forget what they got in trouble for, and if immediate action is not taken to discipline the child, sometimes it is best if no action is taken. Although, there are times when it may be better to discuss discipline options with a spouse in order to decide what may be most effective for the situation. I believe that parents should always support each other and be on the same page in discipline or any sort of decision made about a child, otherwise, the child will learn which parent is the pushover, and which parent is the strict, no excuses allowed parent. The same goes for the classroom, communication between the teacher, the principal, and any other adults that are involved in the child's school day is extremely important. The adult who witnesses any inappropriate behavior from a child should always be the first to discipline that child, whether that means having a conversation to understand why the behavior happened or separating the child from the rest of the class if he or she poses a threat to the other children. If, and only if, the inappropriate behavior continues or excavates is when additional reinforcement should be used, such as the principal or parents.
DeleteI don't mean to play the other side of the argument, but sometimes it is necessary for students to be removed from the classroom and to have a different "authority figure" administer the punishment. I'm not necessarily referring to the principal. As an example, I worked with a couple of young boys who were constantly misbehaving and contradicting the requests of their female teachers. Multiple plans were put in place for them individually and they still were not successful in the classroom because of their behaviors. The only way they would focus and finish the tasks that were requested of them were to be placed in the classroom of the only male teacher in the building. They needed that particular "authority figure" to succeed and it worked wonderfully. They caught up on their missed work and performed at an appropriate level. Every student is different and you as a teacher must find what works on an individual situation. If removing the student doesn't show effective, then it should not be used. Of course these particular students were able to eventually return to class and join with their peers and the behaviors minimized, but it took a long time period to determine what worked.
ReplyDeleteI do have to add though, that I completely agree that the discipline needs to be immediate and performed by the observer.
DeleteI agree sometimes it is necessary to remove the child from the room. I think that this should happen if, like you said, other measures were taken and they did not work. The teacher should always try to solve the problem on her/his own first.
DeleteEvery situation is different, but eventually those boys are going to have to learn to respect and listen to female adults.
DeleteI also feel that it is important to handle a situation immediately. There are many times when kids are testing people just to see how far they can push someone. This is another reason to step up and take care of the situation now. There may be different approaches used, but whatever the situation and approach is, it needs to be immediate. Teachers need to work within the schools policy and make sure mom and dad are as well.
ReplyDeleteAs mentioned already, taking care of the behavior problem immediately, rather than waiting for Dad or the principal to deal with, seems to be the best course of action. In some ways, telling the child they have to wait seems like more of a threat than an actual consequence, which students often take lightly. I also don't like the idea of saying "Wait until Dad gets home" because it presents a very negative, fierce picture of Dad. It makes Dad look like the "bad guy," and it could taint the child's view of his parent. The same could be true of seeing the principal. However, that's not to say a child should never see the principal. There are some infractions that are serious enough that an administrator needs to be involved. And if a child continually misbehaves, finally a greater authority needs to be used. Just an interesting side note - I was subbing in a high school class during the last week of school, and I noticed two boys were missing. The regular teacher lets them take the pass whenever they want without telling where they are going, so this was not uncommon. However, I noticed that it was two troublemakers, and they had been gone awhile. I went and searched all over the school for them and couldn't find them. Eventually, they were found sitting outside one of the other buildings, just enjoying the beautiful weather. Being a sub and not knowing all the correct procedures, I took them straight to the high school principal's office. Come to find out, this had been a good thing, because only a few days before, these same two boys had left school premises during the day to drive somewhere to buy some pop. So depending on the infraction and the grade level, there may be other misdemeanors involved that the principal can mete out consequences accordingly.
ReplyDeleteWow, what a story! I am glad you found those students and that you ended up taking them straight to the office. Sounds like they thought they would get away with skipping class since they had a sub...that didn't work out!
DeleteI work as a para, and supervise lunch duty. Most of the time I deal with discipline on my own, but there are those times that involving the classroom teacher or principal is necessary and effective!
I agree that by telling the child to wait till dad gets home makes him look like the bad guy. I do not think this is right, I think both parents should be in charge of the punishments given to their children. As for your incident while subbing, I think you did the right thing. I believe I would have done the same if I were out in that situation. I think you handled it appropriately.
ReplyDeleteIn reading the comments so far, I have to agree with many of you. I think it's important for the classroom teacher to deal immediately with discipline issues, and that not every issue should be dealt with by sending students to the principal. I was writing my discipline policy last week, and I decided on a policy where students are referred to the principal after 5 or 6 infractions--AFTER a call/note home to parents. I chose it as a 'last resort.' However, I do reserve the right to send them straight to the office depending on the severity of the incident!
ReplyDeleteSarah,
DeleteI also had a similar plan. I think it is important to place the option of immediate removal for severe situations in which the child is harming themselves or the classroom. Even if my previous post appeared to relay the message of removing students, I am strongly against it. Unless it is necessary. To be honest, I would rather do a reward system for positive behavior and use negative behaviors as teachable moments, but it is not always effective.
Sarah,
DeleteI began writing my disciple policy with the stoplight plan, then I decided the plan did not give students enough chances. With this plan students are sent to the principal with only two strikes and they are not given a chance to improve their behavior. In the end, I chose a plan, like you that gave students multiple infractions before being sent to the principal. I love your disclaimer at the end of your post!
I agree with Jennifer about taking action at the time of the incident. Especially since we tend to forget what exactly happened and punishing them at that moment will really make them realize you mean business. I have used both methods and for me it works better if they are punished at the time instead of waiting or having the other parent deal with it. It makes you look like a softy and the other parent might not come home in the mood to deal with a problem that happened 9 hours ago.
ReplyDeleteIn school we currently use conscious discipline with the children and it is very helpful because it teaches them to use their own voice to let the other person know what they don't like.I like to let the parents know if i am having a problem with the child and what we all can do to make sure the problem stops. Although there are times when the children will be sent to the principles office, but those times are very few. Sometimes these children that are causing problems maybe looking for attention due to family problems and that's where we as teachers need to make sure we ask the right questions and the correct disciplinary action is taken so that we don't make matters worse for them.
I am product of the first quote, "Wait until your father gets home." My father was definitely the disciplinary when I was a child which means my mother was the opposite. Because of this, I walked all over my mother. I knew she wasn't going to do or say anything to me if I misbehaved; therefore, I misbehaved often in her care. This rarely happened when my father was around. This division of discipline affected my relationship with both of my parents. Though my father was the disciplinary, I clearly had more respect for him which led to better behavior.
ReplyDeleteLike many others have stated, dealing with the discipline immediately is key. Waiting not only impacts the behavior but also the relationship between disciplinary and defender. I think establishing expectations and following through on those expectations will develop a respect that in turn curves the misbehavior.
Your story about your childhood was a great reminder of why it is so important to gain our students' respect! Good post!
DeleteI had the complete opposite. My mother always disciplined me right away. I can see now that it was a good thing. I could never get away with anything, which is good now that I look back at it. I raised my children the same. They had to deal with whomever caught them doing whatever they should not have been. I can say, thank goodness this was a lesson I learned. I can only imagine in todays world trying to get a way with wait until your father gets home. Our kids are too clever now and have too much at their hands to get them in trouble.
DeleteMy sister is divorced and have two little boys. Their dad won't do anything discipline wise, so if they get in trouble at school, he calls my sister. Then, when they go back to my sister's house, they get in trouble from her, even though their dad should have taken care of it. It makes the dad come out looking good, and my sister looks like the bad parent all the time. It's a hard situation to overcome, but I think parents need to discipline together, and realize that whoever witnessed the event is the one who decides the punishment.
DeleteSonya
I agree with a lot of the rest of the class and think that it is important to take of the issue and discipline problem right away and not prolong the consequence. I especially think it is important to deal with behavior right away in young children. Younger children tend to forget about things and move on quickly so to have something brought up later maybe not be effective for them if they have already forgot about why they are in trouble. I also think that it is important as a teacher and as a parent to handle the discipline yourself so the child learns to respect you and follow your expectations as well.
ReplyDeleteGood point about how a child might forget about what they did earlier. What message does it send to them if they are punished for something that happened hours ago? They will not see the connection between the action and consequence and will most likely end up confused and upset. Also, if you do not deal with the situation right away, they will not understand how serious the situation was. Good post!
DeleteI'll admit, I say "just wait until your dad gets home" regularly. It is not a good thing. My children know they can get away with a lot more when dad is not home. I need to learn to handle situations immediately, as this assures the incident is not forgotten and the child can connect the action to the punishment. If an incident is not addressed in a timely order, it will likely be repeated.
ReplyDeleteAs far as school goes, I think it is the teachers responsibility to handle most problems in the classroom. Severe behaviors such as fighting should be handled by an administrator. Having a spelled out discipline plan that includes consequences and following it lets students know the expectations and in return, eliminates most behaviors. If a behavior pattern develops, a conference should be held with the parents to discuss the concern and create an action plan.
This is a very relevant topic. Behavior management in the class is so important to effective learning. I think that the behaviors above are negative for three main reasons. 1) Why am I passing this behavior to someone else? For some people, it is because they do not want to be the “bad guy.” If I can have the principal deal with the students, I do not have to dole out any punishment, so my students can still like me. This puts the principal in a bad spot because now the students dislike him/her. There should be a positive feeling between students and administrators, and my unwillingness to deal with the student myself prevents this relationship from growing. 2) If I am continually sending the students directly to the principal’s office, my students will not take me seriously when I do try to enforce rules. Kids pay close attention to what is happening, and they will probably be skeptical of any new behavior. Also, if I am not used to dealing with an issue myself, I will probably not be very confident and this will cause the students to lose respect for me. 3) I see the teacher/principal relationship as being extremely important. If I am always sending my students down to the office instead of practicing disciple myself, the principal will likely think that I am incompetent and will question my abilities as a teacher. I think that the principal should not be the “go to” disciplinarian. If I have continually tried to work with the student myself and nothing I do seems to work, then the principal can be notified. Even then, I think it would be best for the principal, me, and the student to meet together so that all the information will be shared with everyone.
ReplyDeleteShannon, I like that you bring about the question "Why am I passing this behavior to someone else?" I think this is truly important for every teacher to ask themselves before sending a student to the principals office. I do think you're right in saying that a student's relationship with administration is a very important one, and they shouldn't be just looked upon as the discipliners. I also think your plan of joining the student in the principals office is exceptional. This way, the student and principal don't feel as if you're just pushing your problem off on someone else. You're taking credit for your problem and wanting to help solve things together.
DeleteAfter reading the comments from the class I see the majority is in favor of the parent that is present should be the one that disciplines and I completely agree with this scenario. I think that it is important that the parent that is present at the time of the wrong doing should be the one that disciplines the child for so many reasons. I think that it is unfair to threaten the child with the other parent. That is making the other parent out to be the " bad guy" , which there really isn't a bad guy, it is just being a good parent. By the time the other parent gets home the child may have forgotten the reason that they are even being punished, especially if they are very young. Another reason is if the parent that comes home has had a bad day they could possibly, without realizing it, make the punishment more harsh than it would have been had they had a bad day. The parent that was present when the wrong doing occurred may also be having a bad day and could possible elaborate to the other parent. I think that it is good for parents to have an equal role in disciplining their children and to figure out what their actions will be when it comes to discipline incase one of them isn't around. This will make it so each parent agrees with the discipline action even if they aren't home.
ReplyDeleteWith teachers I believe that it is important to discipline the student as the problem occurs. Sending a student to the principal shows the principal and your students that you have no control over your classroom. The students will see that you have no control and will take advantage of this. If students see that you have control of the classroom and that you discipline accordingly they will respect you and your classroom rules. Of course there are severe situations where a student should be immediately sent to the principal.
I have heard that no only from my mother, but also from co-workers. I think it teaches children they don't need to listen to you, but to the person they are threatening you with. It also put the person that is the "Bad guy" in a bad position because they then are looked at as the person who does the punishing only and in a my case it was my step dad and we had problems for a long time. Plus, when he left I had a hard time listening to my mother because that was never really her job.
ReplyDeleteI think that there are times when this method has to be used, but only after the first person in the chain of command has exhausted all resources. I feel like if a person "passes the buck", they are taking away their own authority. That action gives the child the message that the person in charge is not able to handle that situation and leaves them open for future conflict. Adults need to be consistent and know that "because I said so" or "because that is what the rules are, no exceptions" are okay to say to children. When children get explanation after explanation and choice after choice about behavior, or passed on to the next person, they become indulged and gain a false sense of control. Children should have a voice, but as adults, especially parents and teachers, we should guide them. And when children are not making the right decision, stop it immediately, give the consequence or correction, and follow up later with another authority figure if necessary.
ReplyDeleteI do not have any children but you can bet that I will be using the "do I need to call your father" line to my advantage. I heard this line when I was little as well as my brothers and sisters and we shaped up so fast! We knew we were in trouble if dad was called. For some reason, it was always okay to torment mom. I think it's because she let us get away with it. She would try to discipline us but it never really worked for her. She always had to call in reinforcements if necessary, a.k.a my dad. However, as a teacher in a daycare setting, I have had to take children to the office for disruptive or unsafe behavior. Now, this would be very great if my supervisor enforced the same rules of all children, and wasn't such a push over. Often times if students were acting out in the classroom, or were sent to the office for bad behavior, they were to calm down in a private room. Now, on multiple occasions when I went to get that student and talk to them after they had calmed down, or bring them back to class, they were almost always playing some sort of game. This strategy I never understood. I feel like it reinforced bad behavior. If you act out, not only do you get out of the activity, but you get to be sent to the office where the method of calming down is playing games and being bribed with candy to have a good rest of the day. From then on, I tried to keep them out of the office as much as possible and do the reprimanding myself. I think that children are very smart. They know what buttons to push and they know what they can get away with. If they see one child having special privileges over another then they will bring that to your attention. I think that at any possible cost, you need to be the authority figure and you need to reinforce the rules for everyone. Children catch on to a lot of things that we don't give them credit for. They're smart, and if allowed, they will work the system. It's best to take the responsibility and deal with it as best as you can without outside reinforcement if at all possible.
ReplyDeleteI really enjoyed reading your response. I think it is important to take action right away when a child misbehaves, but I too have been guilty of saying, "Do I need to call your dad?" Your right it works, but is it right? That is the question. As for the incident at the school you encountered, I would have done the same thing you did. I do not think that rewarding a child teaches them anything. It lets them know that they can do whatever they want and not get in trouble. Like you said, kids are very smart and they learn quickly what they can get away and what they can't, they also know who they can do what with and when. Children do not get the credit they deserve when it comes to smarts and wittiness. They know how to get what they want and who will give it to them.
DeleteGrowing up, my dad worked for the Railroad, and was usually gone all week and then would come back home on the weekends. I was usually in trouble for one thing or another, and my mom would discipline me when it happened. However, once my dad got home a few days later, he would also discipline me for whatever I had done wrong. This didn’t work, because when I was young, I couldn’t remember what I had done to be getting in trouble again. I came to see my dad as “mean”, because when he got home after being gone for a while, all he did was discipline me. This caused a strain on my relationship with him, which is still ongoing today. I feel like this is a bad thing. A child needs to be disciplined when the behavior happens, by the person who witnessed it. If you wait to discipline them, they are not going to be able to relate it back to the behavior. Also, if you send the child to someone else to be disciplined, the other person really doesn’t have any idea what happened except for what you told them. Information could be exaggerated, which doesn’t help anyone. Children need to learn to respect you, and if you are constantly sending them off to someone else, they quickly realize you aren’t going to punish them yourself. It is better to handle the situation yourself, so the child knows that you mean business.
ReplyDeleteSonya
Sonya, your last sentence in this is perfect! "It is better to handle the situation yourself, so the child knows that you mean business." I once asked a veteran teacher for tips as a new teacher and she said, "don't smile at the kids until Christmas." I think this may be an extreme example, but what she was getting at is that if the students see your weakness they will walk all over you. In the case of discipline, if the students see that you need someone else to do your dirty work then they will misbehave knowing you wont discipline them.
DeleteIt was so interesting to hear about all of the different stories about discipline in childhood or from teaching experience. I think that sending a student outside of the classroom would be a mistake on a teachers part. When daily issues are occurring that are minor, you need to deal with them as an authority figure. Sending a child to the principals office will 1)get them out of the classroom so they aren't learning and 2) can cause the class to look at you with less respect than you had previously had. Seeing an adult "give up" and say I'm going to let someone else deal with this is not something I want my students to see in me some day. In certain situations, I do feel that it is necessary for a higher position to step in and help, because sometimes things can get out of hand. But with appropriate discipline policies set in place, we as teachers should be able to prevent a majority of these instances from happening. When I was a child my dad was the disciplinarian, and although mom tried, we all definitely feared dad a little more when we were in trouble. All dad had to say was "excuse me?" when we tried talking back and we immediately apologized to him or mom and went on our way. No fit throwing, no attention was drawn to us. It was a simple discipline that worked for all of my brothers and sisters and I. Overall, I feel that no matter what, you will always discipline in your own way and it will take some time to figure out the best system. But until you can get it completely figured out, you must stand strong in your policy and follow through with punishments so that students do not believe that they can get away with breaking the rules to prevent having to call in an authority figure.
ReplyDeleteTaylor
I do not have children nor have I been in charge in a classroom setting, so I have never personally used these phrases. I have, however, heard these phrases used on people around me in the past. I think using the phrases, "wait until your father gets home" or "go to the principal he/she will deal with you" implies that you are unable to control the situation yourself and are a lesser threat than the person who will be doing the discipline. This should not be the case. I don't believe your children or students should be terrified of you, but I do believe that the children under your supervision should view you as capable of tending to the discipline needs at hand. I grew up in a home where which ever parent was home would do the discipling, and let me tell you, you didn't want to be in trouble on either side. I was just as likely to behave when my mother was around as when my father was around, because I knew neither of them would let me get away with whatever I was doing.
ReplyDeleteI have been around teachers that don't discipline in classroom, but rather send students to the principal. They were typically viewed as student's pals instead of student's teachers. Their classrooms often got out of hand, because they knew they weren't going to get in trouble unless they did something bad enough to be sent to the principals office. With that being said, I think it's important to stand your own ground as a teacher and do your own disciplining unless the student is putting the other students at risk.